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	<title>Comments for After Hours</title>
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	<link>http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours</link>
	<description>various musings from my professional life</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:24:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on more on web tools by hal</title>
		<link>http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=27&#038;cpage=1#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>hal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 11:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=27#comment-15</guid>
		<description>I had Firebug when I had Firefox. Since my reimage I haven&#039;t reinstalled. It was pretty useful. IE has been decent enough with the tabbed browsing and the add-on that enables gesturing. This isn&#039;t a religious statement. More about my laziness to spend the five minutes to install it. Really, it&#039;s more about having to go grab the tool and all of the extensions that I used regularly. I do miss my &lt;a href=&quot;http://projects.benjamindodson.co.uk/hammertime/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Hammer time&lt;/a&gt; button. Plus, there is a real void of add-ons for IE and many of the ones they have cost something. There would be rare plug-in I would pony up the dough for. Though I&#039;ve made my share of donations to the cause for Firefox plugins now and again.

There were two other features buit in to Firefox that I miss and haven&#039;t seen them in IE (yeah, I know... download Firefox already): &quot;View source selection...&quot; and spell-check. The former was great to isolate areas on a page and see what code got it there. I recall it had a couple hiccups with it&#039;s interaction with Firebug but nothing that was really all that bad. The latter was sweet for forms like this. Here, to spell check, I would have to copy the text and paste it into a tool that had a checker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had Firebug when I had Firefox. Since my reimage I haven&#8217;t reinstalled. It was pretty useful. IE has been decent enough with the tabbed browsing and the add-on that enables gesturing. This isn&#8217;t a religious statement. More about my laziness to spend the five minutes to install it. Really, it&#8217;s more about having to go grab the tool and all of the extensions that I used regularly. I do miss my <a href="http://projects.benjamindodson.co.uk/hammertime/" rel="nofollow">Hammer time</a> button. Plus, there is a real void of add-ons for IE and many of the ones they have cost something. There would be rare plug-in I would pony up the dough for. Though I&#8217;ve made my share of donations to the cause for Firefox plugins now and again.</p>
<p>There were two other features buit in to Firefox that I miss and haven&#8217;t seen them in IE (yeah, I know&#8230; download Firefox already): &#8220;View source selection&#8230;&#8221; and spell-check. The former was great to isolate areas on a page and see what code got it there. I recall it had a couple hiccups with it&#8217;s interaction with Firebug but nothing that was really all that bad. The latter was sweet for forms like this. Here, to spell check, I would have to copy the text and paste it into a tool that had a checker.</p>
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		<title>Comment on more on web tools by Tonsil</title>
		<link>http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=27&#038;cpage=1#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Tonsil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 01:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=27#comment-14</guid>
		<description>If you want to be able to examine a web page and make changes to your local copy, I think the best thing going right now is Firefox and a wonderful addon, &lt;a href=&quot;https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1843/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Firebug&lt;/a&gt;. It is really helpful to see at a glance what bits of CSS are affecting any element. A number of times I have had a troublesome page that had elements floating to unexpected places or margins that weren&#039;t playing nice. Firebug really helped me nail down the offending styles. It&#039;s also great for javascript issues, including AJAX.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want to be able to examine a web page and make changes to your local copy, I think the best thing going right now is Firefox and a wonderful addon, <a href="https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1843/" rel="nofollow">Firebug</a>. It is really helpful to see at a glance what bits of CSS are affecting any element. A number of times I have had a troublesome page that had elements floating to unexpected places or margins that weren&#8217;t playing nice. Firebug really helped me nail down the offending styles. It&#8217;s also great for javascript issues, including AJAX.</p>
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		<title>Comment on know any good web authoring tools? by more on web tools at After Hours</title>
		<link>http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=10&#038;cpage=1#comment-10</link>
		<dc:creator>more on web tools at After Hours</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=10#comment-10</guid>
		<description>[...] A little over a month ago I had a short post about web authoring tools. Mike offered a few suggestions in the comments but said his main tool is plain text editor - mostly because he would have to clean up the auto-generated code. Even when I did use tools like FrontPage and Dreamweaver, I found myself doing the same thing. The generated code was never that smart. Aside from inefficiencies, as in span tags that defined styles already in place for a given paragraph, the generated code tended to cause more complications when editing later. For example, because of the poor code structure it can be near impossible to unwind styling. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A little over a month ago I had a short post about web authoring tools. Mike offered a few suggestions in the comments but said his main tool is plain text editor &#8211; mostly because he would have to clean up the auto-generated code. Even when I did use tools like FrontPage and Dreamweaver, I found myself doing the same thing. The generated code was never that smart. Aside from inefficiencies, as in span tags that defined styles already in place for a given paragraph, the generated code tended to cause more complications when editing later. For example, because of the poor code structure it can be near impossible to unwind styling. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Contact Me by my other clock is custom at After Hours</title>
		<link>http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?page_id=13&#038;cpage=1#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator>my other clock is custom at After Hours</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?page_id=13#comment-9</guid>
		<description>[...] In any event, that&#8217;s my discussion on creating a custom clock. I&#8217;d be happy to share the code - so drop me a line if you want. I won&#8217;t warranty the code or even suggest its implemented as cleanly as it could be. I&#8217;m still tinkering with it. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In any event, that&#8217;s my discussion on creating a custom clock. I&#8217;d be happy to share the code &#8211; so drop me a line if you want. I won&#8217;t warranty the code or even suggest its implemented as cleanly as it could be. I&#8217;m still tinkering with it. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on the &#8216;id&#8217; attribute by Tonsil</title>
		<link>http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=21&#038;cpage=1#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>Tonsil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 02:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=21#comment-8</guid>
		<description>Okay, I see more clearly what you&#039;re getting at now. I will say that the database analogy doesn&#039;t exactly hold true. More recently, I&#039;ve noticed a trend towards using simply &quot;id&quot; as a primary key for tables. This is definitely true in databases for web applications, and is a convention in the Rails world. Instead of using &#039;orderId&#039;, you typically specify it as &#039;orders.id&#039; in order to distinguish it from, say, &#039;order_lines.id&#039;. 

Aaaannnyway, the reason I mention all that is to bring it back to what you were saying about the document. If I wanted to retrieve an order and its order_lines from the database and display it in a document, I couldn&#039;t just map the database ids to element ids. Why? Because they would not necessarily be unique. If the order has an id of 1, and the first order_line also has an id of 1, you&#039;d end up with two elements fighting over the same id like vampire bats over a used tampon. I mean, that ain&#039;t cool. So it is that you&#039;d have to add in something to make each id unique, typically the table name. That way, you would end up with ids of &quot;order1&quot; and &quot;order_line1&quot;.

As you have stated, the id is meant be used by the document as a whole in order to index the elements it contains, and not as a descriptor of the elements themselves. So yeah, right on!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I see more clearly what you&#8217;re getting at now. I will say that the database analogy doesn&#8217;t exactly hold true. More recently, I&#8217;ve noticed a trend towards using simply &#8220;id&#8221; as a primary key for tables. This is definitely true in databases for web applications, and is a convention in the Rails world. Instead of using &#8216;orderId&#8217;, you typically specify it as &#8216;orders.id&#8217; in order to distinguish it from, say, &#8216;order_lines.id&#8217;. </p>
<p>Aaaannnyway, the reason I mention all that is to bring it back to what you were saying about the document. If I wanted to retrieve an order and its order_lines from the database and display it in a document, I couldn&#8217;t just map the database ids to element ids. Why? Because they would not necessarily be unique. If the order has an id of 1, and the first order_line also has an id of 1, you&#8217;d end up with two elements fighting over the same id like vampire bats over a used tampon. I mean, that ain&#8217;t cool. So it is that you&#8217;d have to add in something to make each id unique, typically the table name. That way, you would end up with ids of &#8220;order1&#8243; and &#8220;order_line1&#8243;.</p>
<p>As you have stated, the id is meant be used by the document as a whole in order to index the elements it contains, and not as a descriptor of the elements themselves. So yeah, right on!</p>
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		<title>Comment on the &#8216;id&#8217; attribute by hal</title>
		<link>http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=21&#038;cpage=1#comment-7</link>
		<dc:creator>hal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 22:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=21#comment-7</guid>
		<description>What I was trying to assert is that the &lt;code&gt;id&lt;/code&gt; is really meta-data at the document level than meta-data at the element level. If the id is describing the data element, then it seems to me that its uniqueness should extend beyond the document. 

For example, if I was modeling an order for a store, there might be an id, &lt;code&gt;orderId&lt;/code&gt;, that makes the order to be unique from all other orders. If we were talking databases, I think this would be akin to the primary key (but I&#039;m not really a database guy). 

On the other hand, the &lt;code&gt;id&lt;/code&gt; attribute has a different interpretataion and has a semi-reserved status a la the DOM. That is, I can locate an element using &lt;code&gt;getElementById()&lt;/code&gt;. In order to locate the element by its unique order id, I would have to parse the tree and look for the element that has that particular order id.

So, the &lt;code&gt;id&lt;/code&gt;&#039;s context is really the document, not the data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I was trying to assert is that the <code>id</code> is really meta-data at the document level than meta-data at the element level. If the id is describing the data element, then it seems to me that its uniqueness should extend beyond the document. </p>
<p>For example, if I was modeling an order for a store, there might be an id, <code>orderId</code>, that makes the order to be unique from all other orders. If we were talking databases, I think this would be akin to the primary key (but I&#8217;m not really a database guy). </p>
<p>On the other hand, the <code>id</code> attribute has a different interpretataion and has a semi-reserved status a la the DOM. That is, I can locate an element using <code>getElementById()</code>. In order to locate the element by its unique order id, I would have to parse the tree and look for the element that has that particular order id.</p>
<p>So, the <code>id</code>&#8217;s context is really the document, not the data.</p>
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		<title>Comment on the &#8216;id&#8217; attribute by Tonsil</title>
		<link>http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=21&#038;cpage=1#comment-6</link>
		<dc:creator>Tonsil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=21#comment-6</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a little confused as to the purpose of this post. If you are saying that the id of an element is used to describe the element itself and not its contents, then I would agree with you. After that, I&#039;m really not sure where you&#039;re going with this. A paragraph with an id of &quot;introduction&quot; is the introduction whether it starts with &quot;It was a dark and stormy night...&quot; or &quot;Monique regained consciousness to the sound of her own screaming...&quot;. 

As for the use of getElementByUd(), why would you use it if you already have the element? That doesn&#039;t make any sense - you would simply call element.id. As the Mudcraft people say, &quot;me confused!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a little confused as to the purpose of this post. If you are saying that the id of an element is used to describe the element itself and not its contents, then I would agree with you. After that, I&#8217;m really not sure where you&#8217;re going with this. A paragraph with an id of &#8220;introduction&#8221; is the introduction whether it starts with &#8220;It was a dark and stormy night&#8230;&#8221; or &#8220;Monique regained consciousness to the sound of her own screaming&#8230;&#8221;. </p>
<p>As for the use of getElementByUd(), why would you use it if you already have the element? That doesn&#8217;t make any sense &#8211; you would simply call element.id. As the Mudcraft people say, &#8220;me confused!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on know any good web authoring tools? by Tonsil</title>
		<link>http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=10&#038;cpage=1#comment-5</link>
		<dc:creator>Tonsil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 21:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=10#comment-5</guid>
		<description>Another program that looks promising, but I haven&#039;t tried, is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newsgator.com/NGOLProduct.aspx?ProdId=TopStyle&amp;ProdView=overview&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;TopStyle&lt;/a&gt;. I was looking for something that would help detect orphaned styles. I&#039;m not sure if it&#039;ll do what I wanted, but it looked like a pretty cool program nonetheless. If the browser bug screens work as advertised, it would be worth it just for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another program that looks promising, but I haven&#8217;t tried, is <a href="http://www.newsgator.com/NGOLProduct.aspx?ProdId=TopStyle&amp;ProdView=overview" rel="nofollow">TopStyle</a>. I was looking for something that would help detect orphaned styles. I&#8217;m not sure if it&#8217;ll do what I wanted, but it looked like a pretty cool program nonetheless. If the browser bug screens work as advertised, it would be worth it just for that.</p>
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		<title>Comment on know any good web authoring tools? by hal</title>
		<link>http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=10&#038;cpage=1#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>hal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=10#comment-4</guid>
		<description>I mostly use the WYSIWYG editors in code-mode and switch the design mode for a sanity check. It&#039;s nice with more involved pages since you can highlight in one view and you will see it in the other. Saves bouncing around.

The problem with the editors I&#039;ve been using is that they are pretty much useless for style sheets. First, adjustments made in the design view are captured in &lt;code&gt;style&lt;/code&gt; attributes of the appropriate element rather than in the style sheet. I see why this would be the case: the assumption probably is that you are overriding the style sheet. But there are times when what you really want is a change to the CSS. Second, the changes are explicit and rigid: heights and widths are explicitly captured and in pixels rather than percentages. They need to be more flexible.

I&#039;ll have to look into GoLive. I&#039;m wondering if there isn&#039;t something little more simple. Perhaps there is an eclipse plug-in. That would be nice - esp. if a few plug-ins glued together to support AJAX.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mostly use the WYSIWYG editors in code-mode and switch the design mode for a sanity check. It&#8217;s nice with more involved pages since you can highlight in one view and you will see it in the other. Saves bouncing around.</p>
<p>The problem with the editors I&#8217;ve been using is that they are pretty much useless for style sheets. First, adjustments made in the design view are captured in <code>style</code> attributes of the appropriate element rather than in the style sheet. I see why this would be the case: the assumption probably is that you are overriding the style sheet. But there are times when what you really want is a change to the CSS. Second, the changes are explicit and rigid: heights and widths are explicitly captured and in pixels rather than percentages. They need to be more flexible.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll have to look into GoLive. I&#8217;m wondering if there isn&#8217;t something little more simple. Perhaps there is an eclipse plug-in. That would be nice &#8211; esp. if a few plug-ins glued together to support AJAX.</p>
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		<title>Comment on know any good web authoring tools? by Tonsil</title>
		<link>http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=10&#038;cpage=1#comment-3</link>
		<dc:creator>Tonsil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:59:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://onegearonegroove.com/afterhours/?p=10#comment-3</guid>
		<description>Well, I prefer to do things by hand. These days, I end up having to correct the effects of WYSIWYG editors, so I don&#039;t like them much. But it sounds to me like maybe you should check out the latest version of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.adobe.com/products/golive/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Adobe GoLive&lt;/a&gt;. It&#039;s very standards-oriented.  

It might just be that you need a better text editor. I use the venerable TextPad on Windows and TextMate on Macs, and both are capable of sending whatever script you&#039;re working on to the appropriate browser. I prefer viewing my documents in a &#039;real&#039; browser versus the design view of an editor, because I know there can be discrepancies. Scroodat!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I prefer to do things by hand. These days, I end up having to correct the effects of WYSIWYG editors, so I don&#8217;t like them much. But it sounds to me like maybe you should check out the latest version of <a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/golive/index.html" rel="nofollow">Adobe GoLive</a>. It&#8217;s very standards-oriented.  </p>
<p>It might just be that you need a better text editor. I use the venerable TextPad on Windows and TextMate on Macs, and both are capable of sending whatever script you&#8217;re working on to the appropriate browser. I prefer viewing my documents in a &#8216;real&#8217; browser versus the design view of an editor, because I know there can be discrepancies. Scroodat!</p>
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